Tuesday, February 07, 2006

Questions Left Unanswered

For several years after I left for college, on Christmas Eve some buddies and I would get together at our old high school stadium and play a game of football. It was interesting to see each year who had gotten slower, who got winded the quickest, and to watch the younger guys who still worked out kick the old, lazy guys' butts.

One year, while we were taking a break from the action on the field, my friend Aaron asked me, "So what are you anyway Luke? Are you a Baptist or a Methodist?" Now, I believe the true intent of his question was, "Are you a Calvinist or an Armenian?" Aaron probably knew, and still knows, that I have difficulty applying labels--both to myself and others. Usually this is because I don't know what the fancy words mean, but also I find it very difficulty to place people and ideas in such cut-and-dry, black-and-white descriptions. Rarely does anyone live up to the entire meaning of labels that get applied. But I digress…

After accepting my recent job with Bryan Research and Engineering, I find myself spending a considerable amount of time on trains traversing different areas of Europe. Having beautiful scenery go by…and plenty of time on my hands…I find it very convenient for contemplative thought and reading. On a recent trip to Germany, I decided to dive back into the first real theological debate I ever became concerned with--open theism.

I reread "The God Who Risks" by Sanders and followed it up with "God's Lesser Glory" by Ware. I've matured a bit since the last time I read these books, and I found myself paying more attention than I had in the past.

I think Sanders makes a compelling argument for Open Theism. While Ware does a good job of rebuttal at times, I grew tired of the number of straw-men thrown up in God's Lesser Glory. Be assured that there are plenty of straw-men in Sander's book, but it didn't seem to be to the almost obscene extent that Ware used them.

But the reading, hearing from each side, brought me back to Aaron's question. And Aaron, I can tell you, unequivocally, I am a….

…Armenian with questions…or maybe a Calvinist with objections…or perhaps a limited open theist…take your pick, I find each of these systems less than adequate.

Let me start out with hermeneutics. I don't remember what the word means, but I see in my notes that beside it I wrote something, which means at some point I did know what it meant. For hermeneutics I wrote, "Either the straightforward literal meaning OR the most simple and obvious".

This is the way that I've always read the bible and I think it's a good way to go about the reading. I find it rather humorous that each side in the argument first brings their presuppositions to the text, and then chooses how to match the text to their presuppositions. Now, before you object, don't worry, I know that each side does this. And of course, I cannot shake my own bias (please see an earlier post). However, having a little bias and reading into the text what is obviously not there for my own convenience are horses of a completely different flavor.

In The God Who Risks, I am compelled by Sander's arguments in favor of God's ignorance (take a slow, deep breath, and then continue). It has always been my belief that God chose to limit Himself when He created Man; and the only way that He limited Himself was that He gave Man free choice. (Libertarian free will for those of you who like big words). God's ignorance, therefore, is simply that He does not know, absolutely, what individual choices we will make. He knows our hearts, knows what we are likely to do to a very high degree of certainty…but not absolutely.

Here's an analogy. My wife loves Dr. Pepper. I know this because she has told me that she loves Dr. Pepper, because we presently have some in our home (I'm a beer drinker myself), and because she always orders a Dr. Pepper when we go out for dinner. So when we sit down at a restaurant and the waitress comes by for a drink order while my wife is gone to the restroom…am I safe in ordering her a Dr. Pepper? To a very high degree of certainty…yes. But not absolutely! (And in fact, I have ordered her a Dr. Pepper when that day, for some strange reason, she wanted a Cherry Coke).

Now, sit back down, and please do not scream, "Ah ha Luke! So you're comparing yourself to God!?!" Please, this is not a valid argument (and the type I got tired of in Ware's book). This is merely an analogy to be taken at face value as a description of the relationship that God has with Man.

Because that's really what this is all about…relationship. Relationship requires God's involvement with limited control. If God was not involved, there obviously would be no relationship. If God controlled our every action and move, there obviously would not be a relationship there either.

I've heard many people say what they think the theme of the Bible is. I've heard Love, (a good one), Redemption, (also a good one), as well as a Demonstration of God's Glory (who can argue with that?). But to me, the theme of the Bible seems to be Relationship. That's why God created Man, that's why He worked with the nation of Israel, that's why He sent the prophets, that's why He sent His Son, and that's His plan for you and me. Relationship seems to permeate every section of the Bible, and I believe is quickly overlooked when people begin arguing their grand theories and systems.

Here's an example from Genesis (Abraham and Isaac). Classical theologians claim that the entire scenario is solely for the benefit of Abraham. God was merely shaping Abraham, teaching him a lesson, and playing along. He knew full and well what Abraham was going to do ahead of time (this, they claim, is the most simple and obvious meaning).

The open theism theorists claim that the scenario was mostly for God. That God was the one changing; God was the one learning about Abraham. Meanwhile Abraham was just obediently doing what God asked and hoping for the best. (The most straightforward, literal meaning)

But if you ask me, the straightforward literal meaning AND the most simple and obvious meaning apply here. BOTH members of the relationship learned from the experience, BOTH were taken further in their relationship with one another.

A lot of sword play has resulted over Genesis 22:12 where God says, "Now I know…" When God says this, it can be taken figuratively or literally, when placed in context with the entire story it simply does not matter. It was a defining moment in the relationship where Abraham outwardly shows his dedication to God. (Can anyone say Baptism?)

Too much is made of this verse. When God says, "Now I know that you fear God", he is stating an affirmation of the outward expression made by Abraham. It does not deny that God new Abraham's heart beforehand or that he knew what Abraham would do (absolutely). It's like saying, "That guy really IS crazy!" about someone who outwardly shows craziness you knew they already had (but not absolutely).

There's more in my notes from that train ride. But for now, I'll stop here. I'm unsatisfied with each of the systems I have seen, Calvinism, Armenianism, and Open Theism. I want a model and interpretation that makes the most sense, which fits with the theme of the Bible, and is coherent. I cannot accept things that do not make sense simply for coherency of the model (as Calvinists do) or allow blatant problems of sensibility exist (as Armenians do). Open theism has too large a variety of beliefs to refute like the Classical views. Suffice it to say that I find it weak overall on various points.

This is why I fit the mold of an opecalvimenian…with questions.

15 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I've recently found myself trying to figure out exactly where I stand on the Calvinism/Armenianism debate, so I can completely relate to this post.

Thanks for inviting me to play football with all of you during one Christmas break, even though I'm not an Atlantan (Atlantanite? Atlantinian?). It was a lot of fun. I hope you and your wife are doing well!

Brad

7:33 AM  
Blogger Cogito said...

Brad, I'm just glad that you could come...and that you still check this blog. I didn't think anyone would read this post since I haven't put anything new up since September.

10:51 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I've got a long list of blog links saved in my favorites folder that I read when a day is going slowly. I had almost given up on your blog, but I'll be sure to check it a little more often now that I know you are still alive.

Man, last year at this time we were playing all kinds of golf. I've only played once in the last 4 months though, and I think I'm starting to go crazy.

Brad

12:32 PM  
Blogger Aaron said...

Wow, Die Academie didn't shut down after all! Just a sabbatical, I guess?

First of all, let's get something straight:

Calvinists have nothing at all against Armenians. People from Armenia do not deserve that kind of discrimination simply because they are Armenians.

Arminians, on the other hand, are followers of Jacob Arminius, and they have some theological problems.

Second, my question about Baptist or Methodist does overlap with the Calvinist/Arminian debate, but practically speaking, it has more to do with ecclesiology. Most Baptists these days have a Calvinistic instinct, but they are miles away from real Calvinism, and they tend to shrink back in horror when they first hear about it. The rubber meets the road between Baptists and Methodists these days on the issues of baptism and church government.

Third, I hear what you are saying about not bringing presuppositions to the text, but that is unavoidable, as this post clearly demonstrates. To identify the central theme of the Bible as relationship and then to project the limitations of a human relationship onto the divine-human relationship will result in faulty exegesis. For example, Jesus taught us to pray to God as Father. It is the nature of a father-child relationship that the child will ask the father for what he needs. We are commanded to do the same with God, but lest we think that the divine-human relationship is the same IN EVERY RESPECT to the human-human relationship as expressed between a child and a father, Jesus taught us this:

"And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do, for they think that they will be heard for their many words. Do not be like them, FOR YOUR FATHER KNOWS WHAT YOU NEED BEFORE YOU ASK HIM" (Matt. 6:7-8).

Of course, in many situations a human father does know what a child needs before the child asks. But we know that in many cases this is not true, and the development of the relationship often takes place through the father's learning of the child's needs and then making a decision about how to meet them. But this is not so with God, for he knows our needs before we ask. Does this mean that our relationship with him is a sham? No, it simply means that God is not limited the way we are, and therefore, our relationship with him will not be exactly the same as our relationship with our human fathers.

The same thing applies to open theism. Open theists think that if God knows the future, everything is a sham, including our relationship with God and especially our prayers. But this is a conclusion based on a faulty premise: that in order for a relationship to be real, it must correspond to the normal way human beings relate to each other. This is man's attempt to remake God in his own image.

But we haven't even delved into the plethora of problems that open theism faces when it comes to issues like predictive prophecy, the plan of God, predestination, and even the very heart of the gospel: the atonement.

1:45 PM  
Blogger Aaron said...

Oh, by the way, Luke,

Ich studiere das Deutsch. Ich anfangte letzte Woche.

[Please proofread that for me.]

6:23 PM  
Blogger Cogito said...

Ah, a German student eh? Zehr gut. If you want to try some German conversation or emails, let me know. I'm always looking to hone my skills.

As for your sentence, it's pretty good. But studieren is typically used for describing a particular field of study or place where you're studying and is often followed by an, while lernen is used for to learn. For instance, Sie studieren Theologie aber Sie lernen Deutsch. It's a fine line and, since you're studying German in a formal class, you'd probably get away with studieren. Also, an article is not needed for Deutsch. If you have one in it, it will literally mean, "I am studying the German(s)", or which I don't believe is what you mean.

You'll find out later on that you don't need an article when describing something by what it is? (There's probably a better way to phrase that). An example is, Ich bin Ingeniur, "I am an engineer" or Ich bin Chemische Ingeniur, "I'm a chemical engineer." Although English requires an "a" or "an" to avoid sounding, uh, poetic, it is not required in German. This is the mistake that Kennedy made when he said, Ich bin ein Berliner. Ein Berliner is a type of donut. I've had one in a Konditerei; they're pretty good. But I don't think that's what he meant. Had he said, Ich bin Berliner then he would have been correct. (The people of Berlin didn't seem to mind too much that he thought he was a donut).

But let me forewarn you…I am and always have been terrible with gender and endings…so don't expect too much help there. I just kind of say whatever sounds correct and smile. =)

Here's an excellent online dictionary if you'd like one. It's from the Technical University in Chemnitz (a city in between Leipzig and Prague). It has handy buttons for ß's and umlauts.

http://dict.tu-chemnitz.de/

I'll get back to your first post a little later.

6:57 AM  
Blogger Aaron said...

Thanks for that info. That online dictionary is sweet. It will be a great help this semester.

I would love to hone my skills sometime. Why don't we wait a few weeks until I have a sufficient amount of German under my belt to say something substantive?

Actually, you could "quiz" me by writing out German emails (not too long) and having me translate them. That would force you to communicate in German, and it would help me with translation, which is my educational goal (I am not really learning how to speak it, just read it for Ph.D. work).

8:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

glad to have you back, Luke. y'all sure did just write a lot. i'll have to come back and read it soon.

10:16 PM  
Blogger Cogito said...

Aaron,

You let me slip one by you…rereading my earlier posts I see that I wrote "zehr" and not "sehr"…oops! ; )

Now to your earlier post:

Remember when I asked you not to say, "Ah ha Luke! So you're comparing yourself to God!?!"…(please see the last sentence of the next to last paragraph in your post).

But that aside, how is it that by saying that God develops in His relationship with Abraham that I am automatically equating the God-Man relationship with a man-to-man relationship? I develop in my relationship with my pet dog (hypothetically speaking since I don’t' have a dog)…does this mean that I am equating the God-Man relationship with dog-man? I develop in my relationship with my Jeep (I'm constantly having to fix that old thing and learn more and more about it everyday)..does this mean that I'm equating the God-Man relationship to the Luke-Jeep relationship? If the presupposition is right, one can take anything to absurdity.

I do not find valid the argument that if one does NOT believe that God is so far removed from us that He cannot be affected in the least….that that person is remaking God into the image of Man. How is this more valid than saying that people who DO think as much are simply remaking God into their image of God?

Where do we draw the line as to what we take as anthropomorphic and what we do not--how far to take an analogy and where to leave it. My biggest complaint for both sides of the debate is that they conveniently take analogies too far and drop others off as they see fit to enhance their own presuppositions and position.

My expressed feeling is that Calvinism draws the line too far to the right, Open Theism draws the line too far the left, and Arimians seem to draw the line in various places willy-nilly.

(By the way, Aaron, I'm saying all of this in the utmost of kindness…no anger here).

So let me axe you a querstion, in what ways was Man made in the image of God? (Surely you don't believe that my ugly mug and soft body resembles God in anyway)

And one more thing, I was describing relationship as a theme, not a presupposition. I think it's a neat idea to view all of creation…and beyond…as sort of "dyads" or pairs with interactions, whose sum is existence…but it is not required for this argument and I just threw it in there for kicks. You can take that paragraph out and it does not change the way I believe my hermeneutic requires the passage to be read.

2:41 PM  
Blogger Aaron said...

I have reread a portion of your original post (the part about Abraham), and if I understand you correctly, I don't see why you have any objections at all to Calvinism. Bruce Ware himself affirms that Abraham's test had an affect on God:

"...the divine immutability is best understood as involving God's unchangeable nature (ontological immutability) and promise (ethical immutability), but...Scripture does not lead us to think of God as unchangeable in every respect (absolute immutability). Importantly, God is changeable IN RELATIONSHIP with his creation, particularly with human and angelic moral creatures he has made to live in relationship with him...Therefore, when God observes Abraham bind his son to the altar he has crafted and raise the knife to plunge it into his body, God literally sees and experiences in this moment what he has known from eternity...What this kind of interpretation offers is a way to understand the text as communicating A PRESENT AND EXPERIENTIAL REALITY THAT IS TRUE OF GOD at the moment of Abraham's act of faith, while it also safeguards what Scripture elsewhere demands, the PREVIOUS FULL AND PERFECT KNOWLEDGE GOD HAD OF ABRAHAM'S FEAR OF HIM." (God's Lesser Glory, pp. 73-74, emphasis original)

Certainly, classical theism has tended to err on the side of God's transcendence and immutability, but Calvinism does not necessarily entail these errors, as Dr. Ware demonstrates (and as many, if not most, Calvinists would affirm today).

As far as drawing the anthropomorphism line, I would suggest several principles to follow:

(1) Does Scripture's teaching about God elsewhere contradict the literal reading of the text? For example, Ps. 139 speaks of God's comprehensive knowledge, both of us as individuals and of the way our lives will unfold: "in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there were none of them" (v. 16). This text only scratches the surface of Scripture's comprehensive testimony to God's exhaustive knowledge of all things past, present, and future. It is a good principle of interpretation to read Scripture in light of Scripture and to let what is clear interpret what is unclear.

(2) Does the author/book characteristically speak of God in anthropomorphic ways? The author of Genesis (Moses, in my opinion) clearly does. In chapter 3, God walks in the garden in the cool of the day, calling to Adam to find out where he is (v. 3:8-9) and then asking Adam who told him he was naked and whether he had eaten of the forbidden fruit (v. 11), as though God did not already know. In Genesis 18, the Lord again speaks as though he is ignorant of a present reality due to spatial limitations, when he says in verse 21: "I will go down to see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry that has come to me. And if not, I will know." The text pictures God as an investigator establishing the validity of a charge before he carries out the sentence of judgment, but I have yet to see any open theist author argue that God is spatially limited and thereby ignorant of multitudes of present realities. I can imagine a generation or two down the road, someone will come along claiming to be a "finite theist" or something like that, exulting in the limited god of the Bible, whose resourcefulness is unmatched; even though he doesn't know the future, is ignorant of quite a bit of the past and present, and can only be in one place at a time, he sure knows how to be vulnerable with us and get in touch with our feelings! The point is this: open theists are very selective about what they take literally and what they don't, and half the time what they take "literally" they really don't take all that literally after all, as Dr. Ware has pointed out repeatedly.

(3) For an excellent discussion of the issue of anthropomorphism, see A.B. Caneday's article "Veiled Glory: God's Self-Revelation in Human Likeness--A Biblical Theology of God's Anthropomorphic Self-Disclosure" in the book _Beyond the Bounds_, edited by John Piper, Justin Taylor, and Paul Kjoss Helseth.

8:39 PM  
Blogger Cogito said...

Very good Aaron, I'm pretty impressed with howe well you know Ware's book.

In my notes I actually make mention of Ware's comments on page 73 (pg 73 3rd paragraph is what I wrote down).

"I'm almost on board with him hear. But in looking at the text I feel that his analysis makes an unneccessary leap into exhaustive foreknowledge. I find it to be an absurd statement that God both experiences acts but has exhaustive foreknowledge. It's trying to have your cake and eat it to."

I agree, God is changeable in relation to His creatures. It seems to happen literally and figuratively throughout the Bible. He does not change in His essential nature or wisdom, but does change in His will and purposes.

Your steps for "drawing the anthropomorphism line" are very good. Of course, they the common sense thing to do. Anyone who is making such a decision must take these steps, no matter what outcome they may find.

But this still does not resolve the issue. The question still will arise, what text trumps what text? What's more important, the exact wording of the text or the meaning? As a lawyer might say, the letter of the law or the spirit of the law?

It goes back to the fact that (and everyone does this) one simply read into the text what one wants. For instance, you feel that God's exhaustive foreknowledge permeates the Bible, and therefore those passages trump others that seem to disagree. Meanwhile Sanders would say the opposite.

I would agree that Open Theists tend to pick and choose what they take literally, what they don't take literally, and what they take literally to a certain degree. However, this charge is a two edged sword that cut's both sides equally as deep (I believe anyway). And is, of course, unavoidable by all.

Also I wrote, take out "and afresh" in the last paragraph on page 73 and I agree 100%...I'll have to go home and check the book to see what I meant there.

I'll check out those sources you listed in point (3) next week while I'm traveling.

8:37 AM  
Blogger Aaron said...

Good deal. I really think Caneday's article would be a big help in the discussion about anthropomorphisms.

Another thing I would add about the discussion of anthropomorphisms is that Calvinists have something else on their side: the impossibility of some of God's acts ever happening if God did not know the future. How could God foretell it with such detail, as he does in the last few chapters of Daniel, for example? In Isaiah 40-48, God repeatedly stakes his claim to divinity on the fact that he has foretold the future, whereas other gods cannot do so. Open theists jump through a whole lot of hoops here, but in the process they mangle everything the text argues. In light of these very strong indications that God knows the future, the burden is on those who would argue otherwise to prove beyond question that the "divine ignorance" texts are meant to be taken literally.

9:45 AM  
Blogger Cogito said...

Aaron,

While you may have a point with the last few chapters of Daniel (Daniel is an interesting book isn't it?), I don't believe you have a case with Isaih 40-48. What is the text trying to say? What is God's trump card against these other gods?

That He can take action--NOT that he knows the future. God obviously knows that Bel and these other idols are just chunks of wood, stone, gold, whatever, and have no power to act. Meanwhile He says what He's going to do and does it. He backs this up by describing the past and actions He's taken; as well as stating that it will continue to be that way in the future.

IF, you use some quotations such as, 46:10a or any other quotation with a "letter" to designate the rest of the verse is missing...it would be easy to at least show that God claims extensive foreknowledge, if not exchaustive. However, the passage to me seems to contain a lot of "I told you so"s and proofs that God has the power to actively participate in HIStory and to come through with what He says He will do. While I cannot deny that these passages can be seen to affirm some sort of divine foreknowledge, I must admit that I do not believe they must absolutely affirm it. (I'm not sure the Open Theist defense of this passage but I'm going to guess it's something along those lines)

My point here is that Isaih 40-48 can be taken either way. Which is really the point of my original post; I can see both sides of the arguement and how each makes some sense, but that the truth to me seems to lie somewhere in the middle.

But this does make me think of your post the other day; for me what really matters is---saved by grace through faith. (But the rest sure is fun to talk about)

11:23 AM  
Blogger Aaron said...

Well, I think you have just put your finger on a very important issue: God's foreknowledge is a function of his foreordination. I didn't think we would get to take shots at Arminians as well, but I thank you for the opportunity.

"Set forth your case, says the LORD; bring your proofs, says the King of Jacob. Let them bring them, and tell us what is to happen. Tell us the former things, what they are, that we may consider them, that we may know their outcome; or declare to us the things to come" (Isa 41:21-22).

I think you are right that these texts speak primarily of God proclaiming what he will do in advance and then doing it, but to my mind that is MORE, not less, than God's exhaustive foreknowledge. In other words, foreknowledge in Scripture always functions to assert God's sovereignty. It would have been bizarre beyond all comprehension for Isaiah's hearers to have understood those statements as anything close to what the open theists argue. To me, that argument is like saying, "He can bench press 500 pounds, but he's never tried 50, so I'm not sure about that." The 50 is encompassed in the 500.

But then let's think about exactly what it is that God proclaims beforehand and then carries out: does it involve the free decisions of moral agents? Absolutely! Countless trillions upon trillions of decisions are involved in the outworking of history, which, as you correctly point out, is HIStory. It can't be HIStory if he is leaving it up to the compounded, unknowable, unpredictable decisions of billions of free agents. How could he have foretold centuries in advance that Cyrus would release Israel from exile if Cyrus' act was free and unknowable beforehand (Isa 45)? It could only happen if God foreknew with certainty that it would happen, and as you have correctly pointed out, God's claim in this part of Isaiah is that HE is the one who makes these things happen. Therefore, we have not only spanked the open theists now, but we have invited the Arminians in for a good whacking as well. Isaiah never liked them anyway.

6:47 PM  
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